Handicaps

[David Baker]

I have wondered to what purpose your handicap serves when it is for the most part disregarded by the WA? Two years ago my hcp was 11 and they assigned me a 5.5. After the tournament they indicated my hcp would be 13 the next year. They asked what was your lowest index for the year and no matter what your actual hcp was, assigned you by your lowest index. That seems to negate needing a hcp. Isn’t the rationale for having a current hcp to match you with others who are playing at the same level? If you are playing to your hcp, and index, and they place you lower, they are pretty much deciding the outcome of your flight and giving an advantage to your opponents. We have all heard the horror stories of people who have cheated with their hcps. It seems that the WA does a preety good job of monitoring the the flights and protecting the field. It doesn’t do as well in assigning by hcps when it doesn’t use them. On occasion I have known going into the tournament I basically had no chance based on their assignment logic, but played because of the people. I have heard their ridiculous and in some cases stupid explanations. However, I do appreciate their hard work and difficult job.

[Ryan H – World Am]

David,

I appreciate you recognizing the hard work and effort put into the event by our staff. We do monitor handicaps and have certain rules in place with our main goal being to try our best to assign players a handicap that best represents their playing potential. We realize these rules do affect participants in many different ways, but they are certainly fair as the only material that is used to come up with a participant’s tournament index is that participant’s scoring history.

This being said, it is very hard to take any of your comments in regards to the monitoring of handicaps by the staff seriously being that you have not posted any of the rounds that you have played in this tournament during the past five years to your handicap index.

[jim mcdaniel]

BOOM

[Jon Craig]

Ryan
Do you use ESC when posting a tournament round? My tournament postings were done by the club, so i have never entered anything except home or away.

[David Baker]

Ryan, thank you for your reply which I think pretty much verifies the point I was trying to make. Your explanation was no explanation at all and you avoided the question I proposed. First, I never said you don’t monitor hcps. Quite the contrary. I said you don’t use them as the basis for giving someone a hcp. Since I know that you monitor and keep our scores, plus our current scores, I feel certain you have more than enough information to determine a hcp. I chose not to trade insults with you as I have said previously that you have a difficult job and for the most part do it well. I guess I will have to agree with you it will be difficult to take much of what you say seriously.

[Harry (The Hack) Radley]

Ryan H. Things that make you go HMMMMMMM. There was a player last year that will remain nameless at this stage. After day 1 he was DQ’d by the WAM Hcp committee for submitting incorrect information on his handicap. This same person had entered both Jason Corums and myselfs side events. Jason DQ’d him as well and this guy made a bit of a scene at the 19th hole. Well I gave him the be benifit of the doubt and allowed him to remain in my side event to be diplomatic, but reduced his handicap by 5 strokes. On Day 2 he returned another good score of 65 net after the 5 stroke reduction. Hmmmmm. Now I was suspicious. I allowed him to go another day thinking that if he shot a normal round every thing would be OK or if he would hang himself. BUTTTTT NOOOOOO. He once again carded a net score of 66 to which he returned to me and tried to collect a $400 prize. When I informed him he was DQ’d from my event he became abusive and violent and almost caused a emabarrasing scene at the 19th hole.

If he hadve returned those scores in the WAM he would have shot net 66 – 60 – 62 off the handicap that he stated was correct and that he had just played well.

My question is, if he returned those scores to me as legit scores in an attempt to cash in on my prizes I sure that he would have entered those same scores onto his index. I still have a record of last years side event and very much doubt that any of these scores were submitted thus making his submission of this years handicap index incorrect and false thus being once again a snadbagging cheat.

[david tiano]

Harry,
This type player you are talking about is a major problem for us and the WA staff.

The reason is that they give the event a reputation of “sand bagging”. I have heard this since I first starting playing in this event in 2006. I believe the current WA staff has done a wonderful job in adjusting and preventing problems with handicaps before the event starts.
In the past you submitted a handicap on the honor system and no one checked on it until you went out on Monday and Tuesday and shot way low and got adjusted or DQed. Now the 12 month index is a true number of your playing ability and you can’t just throw in some “ghost” scores to inflate your number in July. Also the adjustments for not meeting the requirements helps again with incomplete handicaps.
I still don’t agree with the WA index of two best from last year. I believe it should be all scores from previous year not just 2.

Anyway that player is bad for us and bad for WA, hope he stays away or learned his lesson.

[Scott T. – World Am]

Jon – Yes, post any score using ESC regardless of tournament or not.

David B – The point is all handicaps we “assign” for the tournament are from rounds you (should) post. We’ve never placed someone at a handicap index that isn’t based on your own scores. No information is disregarded and many players will play based on their current index. In reference to that one time you played to a WA index (5.7) instead of your submitted index (10.4) the difference may have been less drastic if you posted your tournament scores to your own index.

Edit: failure to post tournament scores from the WA the previous year is grounds for immediate ineligibility.

[jim mcdaniel]

Harry,
Is that player listed as an entry this year?

[david tiano]

Scott, I hope you mention David B, and not me. Ha Ha

[David Baker]

Scott, thank you for that informative explanation of how handicaps are determined. I think I see what you are saying about not posting tournament scores and how the higher ones are disregarded should you shoot a good round. I will make sure that I add my past scores so that a more complete picture can be drawn when determing handicaps. I stand corrected, and will not make that mistake again. I feel much better knowing that the WA takes any any all information into account when assiging handicaps. Again thanks for your hard work and response.

[Harry (The Hack) Radley]

Jim, Yes Im sure this person is coming again, in fact has made several comments on the message board here on different topics. I have been biting my tongue not to say any thing as it appears that the controversy of last year is like water off a ducks back and he lives in his little dream world as if nothing has happened. Im sure he is reading this and knows who he is. To go a bit further, I recall last year at the Friday after tournament, he had his wife come up to me and apolgise on his behalf for his actions. Didnt have the honour to do it him self. I have a long long memory and I dont like rude ignorant people but I am not here to embarrass people but I would like them to know that their actions are noticed by a lot of people and its hard to shake a bad reputation once people have an inference as to what kind of person you are

[jim mcdaniel]

As long as those running the different outings and the world am staff know who this guy is, they can maintain the integrity of their events. The problem is if everything is the same, the skins game in his flight will be compromised. I wouldn’t want his name published because he may have seen the error in his ways and changed. Therefore those who know should keep an eye out to protect the rest of us. Maybe that’s asking too much and I should butt out.
Jim

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