How do you get DQ'd playing within your handicap

[Raymond Lemoine]

The saga of my son-in-law continues. First-off my post last night was removed because the powers to be seem to not want this topic reviewed. My son-in-law was DQ’d yesterday but was reinstated after an error posting his score from Sea Trails, he shot a 99 but they posted a 94 and after he left the course he received a phone call telling him he had been DQ’d. Erik is a 29 hdcp and is playing in the WorldAm at 28.6. Day 1 he shot a 102 at Long Bay. Today he shoots a 104 at True Blue and was told on the phone again on his ride home that he was being DQ’d again. How is this possible? We cannot shoot a score within our hdcp range! I’m in flight 42 and the leader is at least 7 under par and I don’t see how he isn’t DQ’d. Last night they reinstated Erik but reduced his WorldAm hdcp by 3 or more strokes per day after being reinstated but apparently that wasn’t enough to satisfy the Tournament committee. I’ve lost faith in how these tourneys are being run. How does this happen Scott? Please do not remove this post, every player needs to know what transpires while this tournament is being played. It costs a great deal of money to play in this tournament a stay in the Myrtle Beach area, I understand we need to police and safeguard our Hdcps, but this is insane that a player cannot shoot within his hdcp range and remain in the tournament.

[Rick Rubrigi]

This seems wrong. A 29 hdcp player shoots a 102 and 104, that nets a 73 and 75. He is over par and gets disqualified? Ridiculous!!

I’ve played where a player was 6-10 under par and did get reduced but not DQed!
What is happening to the world Am?

Either there is a gross mistake in the computation of the scores or I can’t even think of another reason for this to happen.

I did not get the other round score. Was it in the 80’s?

I compute him being 4 over for 2 rounds. Certainly within reason. Again, did he shoot in the 80’s in his third round? Whew!!!

[Scott T. – World Am]

Raymond – your last post was removed because there was an error in score posting alongside inaccurate statements about handicaps and how they work. Second, we will not discuss another players’ private matters on a public forum.

That said, no player who is removed from competition has played within their handicap range I can assure you of that. Your son in law is welcome to contact us privately if he hasn’t spoken to one of our handicap committee members already.

As a side note, you use the word par which is irrelevant and not a term we utilize so I’d ask respectfully to review the handicap system and/or have a conversation with the handicap committee prior to making statements on the public forum.

[Raymond Lemoine]

Scott, I understand the system is based on a players ability to play to par against the particular course he plays. Differentials are something players never look at, we post scores to a handicap Index and that’s all we care about. A 102, a 99 and a 104 should never get a player with a 29 handicap get DQ’d. Adjusted maybe, but DQ’ing a player who has played in this event for the past 4 years and never posted a score below the low hundreds, is a Rick Rubrigi says, is ridiculous. I don’t agree with the committees choice to DQ a player in this way, if you don’t take a players past performance into consideration what good is our WorldAm Index?

[Bob Newman]

From my take, a player with a true index, should only beat his differential 3 times in 20 rounds per the USGA guidelines. I play in 2 different Senior Leag groups and the same people are confident winners by beating there handicap and differential and I never see there scores posted for Rhône rounds. If all scores are posted the system works. Just my take.

[Robbie Baker]

Hey Raymond, I have met Erik and talked to him briefly this past week. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t he have a few holes that he picked up on due to the new 9 stroke rule as well? This new rule helped a lot of people this week. Especially the higher handicaps.

[Jeffrey Barbas]

My friend earned his 9 one day and took one other. And he was in 3. There were quite a few 9’s in our two flights. It happens. I had to ESC 2 holes during the tournament. Two triples. That being said I was out of it after day 2. I did have the low round with another friend of mine, Justin Gorby, day 4. And we were playing together. I started the day double, bogey, par and triple bogey. Not the start you would have wanted but finished with a 76. You just never know when golf is going to happen. Felt like hockey the rest of the week.
My nephew was in flight 10 at a 22.8. I think he only took 2 or 3 9’s for the week. He told my friend that he can play in his flight next year! That was funny!

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Jeffrey Barbas.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Jeffrey Barbas.

[Raymond Lemoine]

Yes Robbie, Erik did take at least one 9 while playing. I haven’t heard anyone that agrees with this disqualification. Again, playing to your Handicap or slightly better shouldn’t get anyone DQ’d, and DQ’ing someone before he completes his four rounds is completely stupid. It cost all of us $2-$3000 to come and play, and in Eriks case another 7 vacation days out of work, to get DQ’d for playing to his skill level. I just don’t understand how this could happen.

[Scott T. – World Am]

Raymond – this will be my last reply since our committee had conversations with your son in law privately already. We do not take action for “slightly better than your handicap” or “for playing to his skill level”. Those are not terms we’d use for anyone in this situation. Again I encourage you to read through the handicap system and its premise. We are just doing our diligence in protecting the field.

[Bob Newman]

It’s not about playing to ones handicap, it’s about what your differential is for the round. You have a index posted each time you post a score to GHIN(or what ever you use). You can figure what you differential is for each round by taking your score and substrack the course rating, then divide by course slope and multiply by 113. This gives you the differential for that score for that day. Their is a table used to determine how many times and by how much you can beat your differential in “x” number of rounds. Score to par has no bearing on this. It’s how much you beat your differential.

[Jeffrey Barbas]

Here’s the main problem with the handicap system and the way the World Am sees it. Last year I had an exceptional round during the World Am. And I wasn’t the only one in my flight. And there were several right behind us. They didn’t get touched that day. Me and the other guy were effectively taken out of the competition. They took 11 shots off us for the week after day 1. The next 3 days I shoot my normal numbers. If I shoot another number they deem even close to my handicap, and I wished I did, they would have DQ’d me.
Now, for a lot of us or at least for myself, I play weekend golf. That’s it. When we come to Myrtle Beach early and play every day you should start to play a little better, right? Well, the computer program that the World Am uses doesn’t allow for that. There is no one on the World Am staff that really gives a crap about your of my handicap. The computer does all the figuring for them and spits out anyone that shoots what it deems an exceptional number. What it doesn’t catch is numbers players. Those that know that they need to back off on round so they don’t get adjusted. It’s unfortunate that they try to explain to us, the players that know what real golf is that “it’s impossible for a 5 or 6 handicap to shoot a par round of golf”. Talk about a statement that’s totally erroneous. Last year I had two even par rounds on my handicap card at the same time. My handicap never went lower than a 4.9 during that time. Funny thing was that they were both Myrtle Beach courses that I shot par on. Thistle and Pine Lakes.
Little secret, some of your Myrtle Beach courses aren’t as tough as the courses I play here at home. Why do you think Tiger Woods seemed to win more than anybody here in Ohio. Because we have the toughest courses here. As much as people say they love to play on fast greens, well, not if your chipping most the day or you just aren’t hitting your irons that good. And the putter isn’t always your friend.
Here is the other factor I have to laugh about. I play my courses here at home at around 7,000 yards. You guys put us at 6300 to 6600 yards every year. So if I end up playing better or exceptional is there really any doubt as to why? I didn’t create the handicap system. It’s a pretty flawed system for the most part. If you put a 4 handicap from Pawley’s Plantation vs. a 4 handicap from Possum Trot, I’m pretty sure that they aren’t very equal. Although the handicap system says they should be.

[Scott T. – World Am]

Jeff you were a 6.5 when you shot a 71 (-.8 differential). Yes, it can happen. Once in 1,200 rounds according to the USGA. Or once every 21 years according to your GHIN playing 57 times this year. Your GHIN dropped to a 4.9. It went down 25% on your own index from ONE score.

In an event of your peers, playing to an ability that will drop your own index 25% is one of the main reasons we even have an adjustment formula in the first place. I don’t need a computer to tell me your index was about go down. That’s what our adjustment formula does. Proactively revises just like your own GHIN will.

A 4 index established at the hardest course on the planet and a 4 index established from Mickey Mouse CC are identical in ability. They are no different. You playing from a shorter yardage is a mere opinion as to why you play better here. The differentials (ability course to course) are likely similar. Gross score is the only thing that changes.

Never going to say it’s a perfect system but to say that instance didn’t warrant an adjustment I couldn’t disagree more with.

[Bob Newman]

Scott– I have a scenario I just want to throw out and just keep in mind that I do know some of the system but am no expert nor do I need to know all the info you have access to. I have been trying for 3 years to “beat” the system, or get DQ’d, and honestly have not had the game to do it and most probably never will. By using the best of last 12 months is very good and I understand why that shows ones potential. But in my case, I was once down to a 6.8 index (or close to that), I was playing longer yardages on a 134 or 128 slope course.And one year in WA actually shot my differential on a course(please to not take the time to completely verify this as it does not matter)–So now I have a 10.1 index of last 12 months, am playing shorter courses at WA than I do at home, still trying to play 6100 yds, If I go out and shoot a round with a differential of 7 or 8, I bust my 10.1 and most probably will receive some “form of adjustment” , but by having a former lower index, is that ever taken into consideration???? Just a food for thought.

[Jeffrey Barbas]

Like I said, Scott, you personally don’t even have anything to do with the adjustments. You let your computer do all the adjusting for you. I’m pretty sure you had me at a 6.0 for the tournament last year. Not sure where you pulled up a 6.5, but, during July and August I usually start playing my best golf. Reason being is that I have already played 10 or more tournament rounds by then. Did I score exceptionally in those tournaments? Probably not. They are from the tips and all our events around here are at scratch. So it’s not likely that I will ever place in any of these events because I’m usually around a 5 to 6 handicap playing against guys that are on the plus side of the handicap. Played one day with the kid who won the Cleveland Am Qualifier. On the 476 yard par 4 this kid hits driver gap wedge which he holes out for eagle. The kid is way beyond my skill level. But I’ve played in enough tournaments that playing with these guys doesn’t rattle me. Although I do remember taking a 7 there. So I feel really comfortable playing with guys of my own skill level. My friend on the other hand gets wound so tight he can’t swing like he normally can. Then he blows 90+ on his tournament rounds.

Fact – You play the 49 and under way too short. There really isn’t a reason that you should move us up to the white tees. I can almost guarantee you that the majority play 6600+ all year long. Heck, Bobby Perkinson who won the WA back to back told me he played 6500 yards back home then. You guys had them at under 6000. Let him put wedge in his hand all day long and it’s lights out. Back then anyways. I know he’s had some back issues and we are all getting older.

The other fact which you mistakenly brought out, my handicap didn’t go down to a 4.9 from one score. That’s completely false. You of all people should know your handicap is based on 10 scores. My handicap did not come down just because of one World Am score. I had 71 at Thistle and 70 at Pine Lakes on my handicap card at the same time and I didn’t drop below 4.9. The difference between an exceptional round and a good round is pretty simple. Making birdie putts. Had I not made any birdies both of those rounds I would have shot 75. And there are plenty of rounds that I play that I walk off 18 with no birdies on the card.

And I guess your definition of exceptional and mine are way off. Exceptional to me is a round in the 60’s. Thought I was going to have one the week before the World Am in the Summit County Senior Am. Ended up at 72, one over. Made bogey on the last 3 holes and was in good position on 7 and 8 and hit 4 iron over the stick on 9. That was the death pin. Long is wrong. Hooked the other two approach shots. That’s golf. You never know what’s going to happen every time you tee it up.

The last fact I know for sure is that I will never win the flight. If I have a good round going I’m not the type to throw a few shots just so I don’t fall under your retroactive adjustment. Playing in the Championship round really isn’t that interesting. At least in the Mesquite Am if you win the whole thing you win free entry into next years event. Not just a salad bowl for your effort. Is that really too much to ask that you guys don’t get so cheap that can’t offer them that? Free entry to the winner?

[Tommy Briggs]

Actually a single score can and will affect your handicap index and will affect it for one year from the date of the low round. If a low tournament round exceeds your handicap index by three shots or more, your handicap index will be reduced to jibe with the low T score. So one exceptional tournament score becomes a part of your handicap for the next 12 months, immediately affecting your current handicap and the next 12 months of revisions.

From the USGA:

Tournament Scores (T-Scores) are kept for a minimum of one calendar year from when they are posted.
The most recent twenty (20) scores as calculated are weighed against the average of the two best T-Score differentials, and if the difference of both T-Score differentials is at least three strokes lower than the Handicap Index (as calculated from the most recent 20 scores), the player is eligible for a reduction.

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