- September 5, 2019 at 8:03 pm #47066Chris SternerParticipant
Raymond, it doesn’t seen like you have a complete grasp on how handicaps work. The system is designed to judge players based on their BEST potential scores, which is why it takes use of the lowest 10 differentials from the last 20 scores. It is not meant as a direct “an x handicap gets x number of strokes”. Playing on those same course and tees in Flight 7, it wasn’t too hard to look up the slope and ratings we played on.
Long Bay white tees are a rating 137, which means as a 28.6 handicap, your son was granted 35 strokes. This means his 102-35 was a 67, or 5 strokes net under par. His differential ((((102-70.6)×113)/136) for that round is a 25.9, almost 3 less than your son-in-law’s handicap.
Combined with his scores at Sea Trails Jones, with a lower rating of 125, good for only 32 strokes, he should probably not shoot another 99-32 net 67, again a differential of 25.3, or more than 3 less again.
The probability of him doing so, is so mathematically improbable that theres no doubt that his handicap is incorrect at a 28.6
What I do have a problem with is the tournament DQ’ing sandbaggers. Yes, I appreciate the effort put into by Scott and the to make sure Flights are won fairly, but people still spend a fair amount of money to come down and play to be banned from playing all 4 rounds. I think a heavier hand of adjustment to a finish outside of the top 10 would be perfectly fine.September 5, 2019 at 8:26 pm #47067
Chris just to add to what you said a handicap index is based on the 10 lowest of your 20 most recent scores AND your two lowest tournament scores from the past 12 months.
Most players are used to a static handicap for 14 – 16 days every month. They receive an email and believe they are an X handicap. What the World Am does is use a “fluid” index, meaning they adjust you immediately for your tournament scores. As Jeffrey did not know, one single tournament score can and will affect your handicap index potentially greatly and immediately.
Let’s say I have a 6.0 HI, I shoot a 70 and a 72 score in a tournament. The differential from those two scores lets say are 0 and 1.4. This makes my 12 month low tournament index .7. This means my handicap will be reduced and will not climb above a 5 for the next 12 months from the date those tournament scores happened. Even if I don’t break 90 for the rest of the year those two single handicap scores take precedent over any and all scores I have entered, and will keep my handicap as a 5.
One of the reasons why the WA inquires about tourney scores is because they take precedent over any other scores you post. They also are the truest and most relevant number when it comes to evaluating a players potential.
To Raymond’s example if his son-in-law did not have any tournament scores and shoots 102, his handicap immediately drops to within 3 shots of his (now) handicap index that includes the lowest tournament score.
Regarding sandbaggers, anyone who pays deserves the right to finish, I agree with a more substantial penalty (reduction) retroactive to his first round to bring him (or her) back into the field.September 5, 2019 at 11:35 pm #47068Jeffrey BarbasBlocked
Tommy, well aware of the T scores effect, and yet, it has never had an effect on my handicap. I have never had an “R” for reduction on my handicap. Here is info for that process.
Q: How come some reductions don’t take effect until months after the T-scores were recorded?
A: Remember, the first step in the process is the best 10 of 20 calculation. The gap between this figure and the two low T-scores will remain narrow as long as the T-scores are among the 20 most recent rounds. In many instances, it is not until they work their way out of the most recent 20 that the gap widens and a reduction kicks in.
Q: I just seem to concentrate better in tournaments and produce lower scores. Why should I be penalized?
A: Baloney! The System is based on the concept that a golfer is going to attempt to score his very best on every hole of every round played. It does not contemplate a golfer who can call upon a “higher gear” at will. The problem with the logic of such a golfer is that they want their handicap based on the higher scores, which would give them a distinct advantage over the rest of the field when they call upon their “A” game. Why do such golfers object to an Index that reflects this “A” game?.
My thoughts are that in the last 17 years that I have played in the World Am I have never posted more than the 1 even par round. Should you be effectively taken out of the running for that one round? Me and the other guy never even came close to that the next 3 rounds. I would have probably placed 3rd that year and he wouldn’t have placed at all. All the other rounds for both of us were 82 and higher. We didn’t set up the course. We didn’t make the par 5’s set up so you had a chance to reach them in 2. And I don’t even have a 3 wood in my bag. One par 5 was less than 175 in with a decent drive. I’m definitely not a fan of the “retroactive adjustment process”. It’s almost like telling the New England Patriots that they didn’t win last years Superbowl because Robert Craft got a hooker. Sorry Bob, we are going to have to take points off the board for that.
So in the efforts that the World Am is trying to make to curb the sandbagging, it has also taken out many of the players who don’t bag. And then the adjustment process has also brought into play the idea that a guy who has a good round going has to back off and throw a few strokes in the end. It’s gotten out of hand, really. Like I said, I’ve never won a flight before and probably never will. That’s why I always go into this event telling myself that I’m already out of it before I even hit the first tee. Just relax and go play golf and have fun. They can keep their gift card and salad bowl or give it to someone else that needs it more than I do.
September 6, 2019 at 8:20 am #47070
- This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Jeffrey Barbas.
Jeffrey I never said I agreed with the WA process. I have seen so many strange things happen on a golf course nothing surprises me. However I also am empathetic to the WA situation who are trying to address the concerns of 3,200 golfers. Compare the number of DQs to the field. 1% would equal 32 DQ’s, and I doubt we came close to that number. So if the rules are good for 99% of the field I would say that is more than fair. (Unless you are part of the 1%) As I replied in another post in this thread, increase the penalty / adjustment, eliminate the DQ and let everyone play.
You said that your handicap does not go down based on one score. I merely pointed out that yes it can go down as a result of a single score and it will, if the one score is a Tournament score. (USGA Handicap Manual: Rule 10-3) If the average of your two lowest T scores is lower than your current HI by 3.0 or more, you may see a reduction.
Jeffrey you do not see a reduction because:
a. you have a low HI and your T score average has not created a 3.0 exception to your HI.
and / or
b. you have a higher number of T scores so the impact of your T score average is less.
(See Handicap Reduction Table 5)
I also have a lower handicap and typically post over 40 T scores a year, so I have only seen two reductions in my HI in over 30 years. The number of posted T scores per year minimizes the impact of a low T score average and potential reduction.
We are talking about differentials not score relative to par. So an even par round might result in a differential of 2.6 (rounded to 3.0) depending on the course rating and slope. This would not create a reduction for a handicap of 6.0 or more. Now a T score average of 2.6 (rounded to 3.0) could affect the HI of anyone with a HI over 7.0 who has a limited number of posted T scores
The WA instantaneously adjusts your HI, to include the T scores you have just posted that day. The instant your T score is posted your will see an affect until your next HI is released. The WA uses the adjusted HI immediately.
I pulled my information from the USGA’s Handicap Manual please see Rule 10.3 a-d for a far more complete explanation.September 6, 2019 at 2:11 pm #47071Raymond LemoineParticipant
OK, so now everyone has chimed in on differentials versus strokes against par, but how does the 9 stroke max per hole play into this? If Erik had 1-2 holes where he had to take a 9 versus his total score would he still have been DQ’d if his correct score per hole been recorded. A 10 or 11 or higher would have certainly kept him in the tourney but he was never allowed to remain in after his third round. So a 9 max helped him lower his score but eventually led to his being DQ’d, not very fair.September 6, 2019 at 2:22 pm #47072
Raymond you are correct, if your Son-in-law saved strokes by picking up at 9 it could have impacted. I do not know if or how the WA accounted for 9s when they calculated reductions and DQs, although I would have to think it entered into their equation somewhere. I don’t think a single 9 or even two 9s in a round would have any affect for a higher handicapper like your son-in-law. But I really don’t know.September 8, 2019 at 11:14 am #47080Raymond LemoineParticipant
Erik has played in this tourney for the past 4 years prior to this years tourney. I don’t believe he has ever broken 100 in this tourney and has to my knowledge only did it once against me at 99. He has tournament scores in his index and i believe if the WorldAm would have been a little more proactive and gave him a chance to outline his play and talk to those 9’s he recorded they probably would not have DQ’d him. But no one even talked to him prior to his disqualification. He pursued it with Scott but was told nothing could be done. What a joke! In the past, i’ve played in this tourney since 2006 and when there was issues we were asked to visit room 210 and talk things out. I never visited this room but we all knew if summoned there was an issue. DQ’ing someone in round 2 or 3 is so wrong, we’re hear to enjoy the WorldAm and the compete in a unique tourney, but how much fun can you have when your taken out half way into the tournament. I’m sure there was no adjustment made to the program to DQ a player based on his acceptance to a 9 score, but should have.September 9, 2019 at 7:41 pm #47081chad wigginParticipant
Hi all, I would like to put in my 2 cents. I am Erik’s cousin & have been participating in this tournament for the last 3 years. I started going because Erik told me how much fun it was & he was right. I LOVE IT! The golf, the friends you make, the 19th hole, the whole package. Erik & I are weekend golfers who play in the North East. I play AT LEAST 10 rounds of golf with Erik per year. I know exactly what kind of golfer Erik is & what kind of a person Erik is. Every round he plays with me is accurately put into his GHIN. What hurts about his DQ is that basically the World Am is saying that he is a cheater, which I can assure you he is not. He went down there early & played a great practice round. He then carried it into the tournament where he gained some confidence & played well. They adjusted him & he considered it a badge of honor. When they DQ’d him after day 3 he was crushed. He was robbed of the chance to see his name at the top of the leader board. He was robbed of the chance to brag to his friends & robbed of the chance to be in the 1st group going into the last day. If he would have been adjusted again I think he could have handled that. But to be kicked out of the tournament & labeled as a cheater wasn’t fair. Yes, they told him he could still show up & golf the last day, but who the heck wants to play in the last group when you earned the right to play with the leaders. It’s just unfortunate that this was all ruined for him after spending all the money he did to go down there. It wasn’t about winning a gift card. It was about him having his moment in the sun. He went out there & just played his game. He didn’t worry about differentials & handicaps. He just let the pieces fall where they may & was disqualified for it. I think that sucks. I played rounds in previous years where I suspected that some one missed a putt on purpose or shanked one into the water on purpose so they didn’t get adjusted. I guess that’s not cheating? It seems that this is what the World Am is pushing people into doing. Cheat by purposely missing shots so your differential isn’t out of wack or we will call your integrity into question by disqualifying you for being a sandbagger. I guess my point is this, adjust people all you want to keep things fair if you have to, but don’t disqualify & embarrass people unless you know that something more nefarious is going on than someone shooting a few strokes better than you think they should.September 9, 2019 at 8:19 pm #47082
For what it worth I agree DQs should be eliminated. Some people plan for this event months in advance, start saving up the money months in advance to go, they secure the time off work and in general go to great lengths to attend. I personally travel with someone who goes to the driving range 3 – 4 times a week for two weeks prior to the WA, and this guy does not go to the driving range 3 – 4 times in a year. The WA is a big, big deal for him. It is also a financial strain he has to plan and sacrifice for.
Adjustments and retro active adjustments can accomplish the same thing as a DQ without ruining the week for someone who has spent good money, taken time off work, travelled great distances to participate. A retroactive adjustment that places the player outside of the top ten in his flight and then force him to play with the adjusted handicap for the final round.
By the way, I have played a lot of golf in my lifetime and I have never met a 20+ handicapper who could manipulate their scores, provided the player had the requisite number of scores and T scores in their HI. So whatever Erik is, he is not a cheater.September 9, 2019 at 9:15 pm #47083chad wigginParticipant
Well said Tommy!
I would like to add one more thing. The courses that we played this year were wide open. It was hard to lose a ball off the tee. When you play up here in the northeast, there are lots of trees that line each side of the fairway. I (more times than I am willing to admit) will slice a tee shot into the woods, lose a ball & have to take a stroke & distance penalty. That same slice wasn’t resulting in lost balls on courses like Long Bay Club & True Blue. Yes, you might be hitting your second shot out of that awful Bermuda grass, but at least you’re not teeing up again & hitting 3!September 10, 2019 at 11:04 am #47084Charlie VadenParticipant
I was DQ myself this year. The one thing they told he I was running away with the flight but after day 2 I had 1 shot lead. Then after round 3 I had a 2 shot lead and they adjusted me which put me back of the leader now by 4. So I went out and played hard the last day and would have finished the tournament in 2nd place and still got kicked out.I do spend a lot money and time getting ready for this tournament every year. I love this game but to be adjusted and kicked out not for coming in 1st but for coming in 2nd is not right.September 10, 2019 at 1:05 pm #47085
Charlie did the person who finished in 1st place get DQd?
When did they DQ you? (After the 4th round?)September 10, 2019 at 4:20 pm #47086Brian SHEALYParticipant
Just want to let you know how much I appreciate what you do!! It’s a thankless job. I know you and the committee work hard to make each flight as fair as possible. Most of the players that complain about the handicap system have no idea what it takes to do what you do. Please continue handling things in the professional manner in which you do and let the negativity roll off your back. Thanks again!!!!!!!!!!
BrianSeptember 11, 2019 at 4:53 pm #47087Jeffrey BarbasBlocked
Brian Shealy, You can stop the butt kissing. Scott & the WA committee have nothing or at least very little to do with handicap adjustments. It’s all done by a computer program that spits people out that the program red flags. That’s all it does. And you’ll get a deaf ear trying to talk to the committee if your adjustment or DQ was warranted or not. Played in this event for 17 years, never won my flight. Got adjusted so severely after the 1st round in 2018 that they made it so I couldn’t compete to win my flight. If I put up a number even close to net par the next 3 days I know I would have been DQ’d. They have some crazy idea that you can’t play good in Myrtle Beach. The greens are over twice the size of ours at home and you can stick your shots on the green. Fairways on many of the MB courses are over twice as wide as I play at home, too. I get off the fairway at home, I’m behind a tree. There aren’t many course that I’ve played in the World Am that I can say that. If I block one off the planet, well, I’m going to have problems.September 12, 2019 at 8:16 am #47088Brian SHEALYParticipant
Barbas, I’m not a butt kisser. I don’t even know Scott or anyone on the committee, but I do know what it takes to put together and to run a tournament such as this. You should step back and look that all you do is criticize. Try being a little more positive and enjoy yourself or find another tournament to play in. It must not be all bad if you’ve played for 17 years.
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