SKINS in Flights

[Mike Hammer]

I know many like to participate in the skins games. I know last year, I started with a 9, was 18 over after 8 holes, then birdied number 9, birdied 2 holes on the back and walked away with $300+. So, not so great for the tournament, but not a bad day.

After reading the posts regarding skins game logistics with tee times and the reluctance to organize skins games from veterans, I thought I would propose a couple of ways that they could happen without too much of a burden on the organizers. Both require a little help (either from course pros or the committee).

The description below is admittedly long and detailed, but I hope it sparks some additional ideas and discussion so we can make the skins games happen.

Basics:
• 1 skins game per flight pair (one game for combined flights at a course)
• Pay in advance for all days – no getting in after the first day, must participate all
days
• Cost and game rules determined by flight organizer
• Process requires organizer to be at the course early on day one and late on the last day.
On middle days, organizer only has to process scores (alternative 1). Alternative 2 –
organizer just has to stay late the last day.
• May require some participation from host courses. Committee clear the way?

Process (alternative 1 – help from course pros):
1) August 19th – Flights assignments made (requires committee to beat published latest date
for course assignments which they usually do)
2) August 21st – Those interested in running skins email the committee.
3) August 22nd – Committee selects organizer (first person to volunteer per flight pair).
4) August 23rd – Committee sends list of flight pair organizers along with their email
addresses to all participants (or posts on the website).
5) August 26th – Participants email organizer to register for the skins game in their flight
pair.
6) August 30th – Organizers create and print out participant list.
7) August 31st, 1 hour before first tee time – Organizer gives list and container for
collecting money to course pro. Pro collects money and checks off participants who have
paid.
8) August 31st, after round. Organizer collects checked-off list and money from pro. Those
with birdies or better send photo (text or email) of official card with birdies/eagles
circled (1 or 2 circles) to organizer (NLT 6 pm). Organizer determines winning skins,
makes envelopes with winnings, and emails winners of their success.
10) September 1st, organizer gives previous day envelopes to pro. Winners collect winnings
from pro either before or after round (depending on if organizer has early or late tee
time). Those with birdies or better send photo of official card with birdies/eagles
circled (1 or 2 circles) to organizer. Organizer determines winning skins, makes
envelopes with winnings, and emails winners of their success.
11) September 2nd – Same process as September 1st.
12) September 3rd – Same process except organizer and those with birdies/eagles stay late to
determine and distribute/receive winnings.

Process (alternative 2 – help from committee) – basically, the same process as above with the following exceptions:
1) Organizers are selected as above and create rule sheets for their games.
2) Organizers provide rules for their skins game to committee.
3) Committee includes skins game enrollment during tournament registration (rules
available). Participants who want in sign up and pay during registration at the
Superstores (eliminates course pros from having to collect money).
4) Organizers collect skin game rosters and money from Committee at the Convention Center
after Monday’s round.

For both alternatives, the committee would need to contact course pros and request/describe the assistance required.

[Bob Newman]

Wow. That’s a whole lot of work for people not involved with a chance of winning anything.

[Mike Hammer]

The committee does have some extra work for either alternative. But they probably have ways to make it easier that what is described. For example, they could post the flight rosters and put out a message asking people to check this blog for how to enter the skins game. Then those who want to run skins can take it from there (for example, start a topic “Skins game – flights 8 and 9). There is more up front work for the organizer, but less on-course work so they can focus on their games during the tournament. Anyway, just trying to suggest ways to get around the issues. Without some extra help from the committee and course pros, the minimum alternative is for an organizer to be there early on day 1 and stay late on all the days. If they get unlucky and have one of the Barefoots or Wild Wing, that could be a ridiculously long day that, like someone already suggested, would probably result in no interest for volunteers.

[Raymond Blank]

Yes it is a lot for one person. My question is say you play 2 rounds and no one makes a birdie. How would you pay out money on the third day. Does the money triple for birdie the third day? What if no one makes birdie all 4 days. What do they do with all that money?

[Mike Hammer]

I’ve never run skins, but I think each course might handle that differently. That is why above I have the organizer provides the rules step. For example, I have played where 2 birdies on the same hole split the skin where most play that 2 birdies on the same hole cancel the skin. I think most have played where no skins on day 1 carries over to day 2, 3, etc. I am sure there are tie breakers out there, just not sure what they are. Maybe the veterans can chime in here, but I could see things like most birdies (all week or by day); lowest score for the last nine, last 18, etc. as possible tie breakers. What I am sure of is that the past organizers have had ways for resolving ties.

[Rick Kimbrell]

Raymond Blank, I have never had a round where no one won a skin BUT my rules have been as follows….
If no skin was won on day 1, 2, or 3 the money from that day(s) is added to the payout for the next day and so on.
Now, let’s say no one wins a skin on the 4th day….I would put all the names playing in a hat, draw out 3 names and they split whatever the pot is.
A few things to mention….
I would never withhold part of someone’s winnings just because that player did not pick up his money (that has been done by someone who currently professes to run skins games…not mentioning any name).
I do not take a cut out of skins pot (that has also been done by some that runs skins)
I do not get free entry into the skins game because I am running it (that has been done by some that runs skins)
If someone wins a skin and has left the course on day 4 and I have no way to hand them their money…I will contact WA and ask for that person’s email address. I contact that person and get his mailing address, write him a check, mail it to him. Alternatively, I can put the money in his Paypal account if he so desires.

I have had guys win a skin and give me a tip.
I have had guys win a skin and buy me a drink.
I have had guys who didn’t win a dime buy me a drink just because I ran the skins.
I have had guys win a skin (both huge and small), take the money, turn their back, walk away and not say one word to me. At the least, a thank you would have been nice. I just assume it is a character flaw and move on.
I don’t expect a tip or drink but if I get one, I will thank you.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 1 month ago by Rick Kimbrell.

[Rick Kimbrell]

Mike Hammer, I explained above how I have run skins in my flights. The courses themselves have never had anything to do with whether or not there is a skins game on any given day on their course. If a participant(s) do not run a game…there is no game. And, we don’t get a lot of help, if any, from the courses. Can’t blame them. Once people start coming in after the round, they have a job to do getting the scores entered for WA scoring.
Also, here is how it has worked in the past, granted we are in new situation this year.
I sit someone in the grill area with a list of everyone who has paid for skins.
People come up to me, tell me they had a birdie (or better) on hole such and such. I write their name down by that hole. If someone comes in and says they had birdie (or better) on that same hole, I write their name down and X out that hole. If someone else comes in with same hole, I simply say it is covered and do nothing to track who else or how many cover it up.
Again, in all my years of doing skins…have never had a day where at least 1 skin was not won. Sure it could happen.
So, to split the money for each hole, you would have to track every person who made a birdie. Some people come in, look at the sheet, see their hole is already covered and walk away not telling me anything
I do this in the most very simplistic method you can do. I print out a list of players who are playing on each course I am playing (2 flights) by flight. Only do that so it is easier to find their name. They tell me they want in skins, I collect their money and mark them down as paid, shove the money in a bag. Remember, there is not a lot of time before we tee off to do a whole lot of work (as it was in the past). Also, it prevents me from getting to warm up before I tee off.
Then I basically have a sheet for every day with the course name and numbers 1 thru 18 on it where I record whatever is reported to me.
I check with the pro shop to make sure everyone has turned in their official scorecard so I know that no one else is going to show up. Then I determine who won what for that day. If you are there you get paid.
One thing I have to tell everyone every year. I am not associated with the WA, I don’t have access to your scorecard. If you don’t tell me you had a birdie or better, I have no way of knowing. If you lost out on getting paid because you did not let me know…SORRY. You should have known better. I do my best to announce that, if the pro will let me, when he is going over the rules.

I am sure there are more sophisticated ways of doing this but I get nothing if I don’t win a skin myself. No cut, no free entry…NADA. With shotgun start as in the past, I generally get to the course 1-1/2 hours early and I was generally there 2 hours or more after I finished play myself. So, at the course between 7 and 7:30am and finally get to leave between 3:30 and 4pm.
I have software that could do this but I carry enough crap without having to take more electronics with me to the course and have the chance of it being stolen.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 1 month ago by Rick Kimbrell.

[Bob Newman]

I have not been a big proponent of skins at the WA. Played in the the first couple years and broke even and decided I would not participate any more. Spent the next several years telling whoever was running them I had no desire to be in the game, my no became more verbal each day. I have always thought it odd that the “skins guy” took up more time than the pro going over the rules of competition. I will add that Bill K. is not one of those. I for one will not miss the skins presentation this year but do think it will be really hard to get everything worked out unless the person does not play in the event. I do find this thought process interesting and will keep following.

[Rick Kimbrell]

Bob, the logistics of running it this year just seems to be more than I am willing to take on
The larger tournament league I play in went thru similar because of COVID to what we will have at this years WA with people teeing off on 1 and 10. Since we control who goes off at what tee time, it was a little easier for us. One officer was in the last group on #1 and another officer was in the last group of #10. We collected money, checked people off playing and whether or not they were participating in our overall skins pot.
With the WA, we don’t control our tee time and since I will be playing in a totally different flight this year, I probably don’t know anyone in the other flight playing there I would trust with money I ultimately would be responsible for. And, if you did each flight separately, considering you only get about 50 to 60% participation, maybe 18 or 20 player…it just is not worth it to spend that many hours there for 4 days for such a small payout. I could change my mind but for now…not interested.

Skins guy’s comments should be short and sweet. “See me, remember who I am, find me after round if you think you have a winner. You don’t come see me, you cannot win regardless of what you made on a hole.”

• This reply was modified 3 years, 1 month ago by Rick Kimbrell.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 1 month ago by Rick Kimbrell.

[Scott T. – World Am]

I have not paid much attention to this thread since we have no desire to be familiar with any skins games among flights. I am only interjecting because of the ideas about our ability to help facilitate and I want to inform everyone our committee will not assist and also actively advise courses not to assist in any skins. Our job and the courses job is to facilitate the tournament itself which is quite the undertaking on its own.

[Bob Newman]

Scott, very well said. Thanks

[Rick Kimbrell]

Thank you Scott. And to repeat what Bob said….very well said. We greatly appreciate the effort y’all put into this event, especially with this year’s challenges.

[benny shepard]

No skins game, big deal it is what it is. Life will go on

[Mike Cheeseman]

Remember there are only 36 to a flight

[Raymond Blank]

Heck!! I want to play in the skins it makes you concentrate more and play better. Lol

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