Skin Game Question

[David Baker]

We had somewhere around 60 flights last year. There was a gentlemen last year who set up, and kept updated, those flights with volunteers who would run the skin game. I keep seeing people who say they are going to run the skin game, in a flight, without knowing what flight they are in, or if in a different flight, whether someone is returning in that flight and ran the game last year, and may chose to run it this year. Is there some protocol for this or is it more or less I did it before so I’m doing it this year and it doesn’t matter that I was not in your flight? I commend those who give there time to run a skin game as it takes time and effort. But I have witnessed some who feel it is there god given right to run a game just because they have done it in the past, regardless of whether they were in that flight the previous year. Not sure I agree with that thought process. Hopefully everything will again be without a hitch and the games will go smoothly.

[Jay Seifert]

#1) TIME – I think it has gotten worse over the last few years due to the more compressed time frames. In the past, we knew which flight we were in almost a month beforehand. That gave us time to establish who was willing to run a game for a particular flight. Now that we don’t know the flights until about a week prior, people tend to scramble when they are uncertain.

#2) GREED – Some (very few actually) try to profit from running those skin games which is, naturally, the exact opposite of what should be happening. I ran a “clean”, nothing taken off the top skins game 3 or 4 years in a row when I was in the “under 49” groups. The PROPER way to run a game is to have a big board where the scores go up as they come in so that everyone can see who is cutting who’s skins. Doing that also provides a count of the total $’s in the pot so that nobody can “skim” 10% off the top. Some guys, like me, will generally tip the guy running the game 10% of any winnings as a thank you but no coordinator should EXPECT tips. The guy running your game should be doing it for altruistic purposes.

My recommendation for those trying to “volunteer early” should simply wait until AFTER we have the flights and that way they can then jockey for who is willing to run which flight. Oddly enough, some flights won’t be able to find a guy to run anything. That & stopping people from profiting off the game were the two reasons I ran the skins when I did it.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by Jay Seifert.

[Jay Seifert]

One last thing I forgot to mention. Nobody should EVER give money to someone who is not playing on your course and in your flight. A number of years back a couple of flights were “taken” for a LOT of cash when these guys were claiming to run the skins game collected thousands of $’s up front on the first day and then the players learned that those guys weren’t even IN the tournament! It happened on more than one course so they likely netted close to $5 or $6K in that scam. So, if there was someone “overseeing” multiple flights last year, my question would be… why? All the “work” is at the personal level collecting the cash and distributing it after each round. There should NEVER, EVER be someone central that is not involved that would be “coordinating” anything! IMHO of course.

[jt foster]

i’ve ran a skins game for 17 years in the worldam and have never taking anything off the top for running it. I don’t practice , hit balls when i get to the course i go around collecting for the shins game. Just thought i would offer to run it again year. IT REALLY Doesn’t MATTER TO ME!!!! people Don’t need to get there panties in a wad !!!!!!!

[David Baker]

Yes I heard about that. I agree with you someone who is playing in your flight should run the game. He wasn’t overseeing the flights he was providing an updated list of who had volunteered to run a skin game in the flights so you could see which flights had or didn’t have a person to run the game. I understand your position. I think the guys that run the skin game should be tipped but doesn’t see that everyone agrees with that. If I win a skin I tip the person as I recognize that he has put time and effort into it. If some profit by it, and run a good game I don’t have a problem with it. I think you guys put forth a lot of time and effort and should be rewarded for it, either tips or some small cut. It is a somewhat thankless job.

[Dale Craig]

Jay Seifert your points are making me think twice about entering the skins game this year. I guess I am just too trusting, but I can also see where the temptation of making some serious coin can be a problem. I watched last year as the skins were being calculated and tallied and it seemed like some guys would watch the sheet and then turn in their card a little bit later. That is the problem with the way this tournament is run. An eraser can all of a sudden make someone some nice cash. I wish that there were a board for posting scores first and then the cards could be calculated for skins. I just don’t like how I can sign/attest someones card and then it can disappear until it is turned in. In New York NYSGA tournaments, the contestants are told that all 4 cards are to be turned in together and not one at a time. This helps both the pro in keeping track and forces honesty on the part of the players as the cards are attested and no one can make a change. I mentioned this earlier in another post on this board though.

[jt foster]

I would only take the bottom of the tournament card and it has to be signed by you and your cart partner for it to count for skins !!!!!! Or a regular score card with all 4 scores of your 4 some on it and signed by them ……. or it don’t count for skins ……. birdies or better to have a chance for a skins. you can bring by your tournament card defore you turn it in.

[Jay Seifert]

Ah, if someone was simply summarizing which player was running which game then that makes sense and nothing nefarious in that at all. I will also say that 98% of the guys running these games have the right approach (accept tips with no “juice” for the operator). It’s also easy enough to eliminate those trying to take a cut off the top by simply asking them for transparency. If they aren’t willing to run it without making a profit up front, others can always offer to run a “clean” game rather than funneling the $’s through the “for profit” guys.

There is also a way to control the guys turning in their card & that is to REQUIRE them to bring in whoever attested to their score to also confirm the skins. It’s the least any playing partner can do, simply confirm to the skins guy what the guy they just played with scored. They don’t even have to stay around for beers or anything. They just visit the skins table before they turn in their score cards to the pro. Granted, sometimes the skins guy can be one of the last to arrive but that’s a bit unusual IMHO.

Less than 2 weeks for me (practice rounds starting on the 24th! Woo Hoo!

[jt foster]

always first there and last to leave the course everyday.

[david tiano]

I feel I must weigh in also.
Ken Delaney and I have been running the skins in our flight for the last couple of years (49 & under 9-10 handicap) I am usually the loud one calling out to join the skins. We get a high participation usually 85 to 90% of the players in our flights. We stepped up because in years past its always last minute and not planed out by anyone.

Here is what we do and you can see by another thread by Ken Delaney our payouts.

1. We take ZERO off the top. I announce how may players have paid each day.
2. We only verify with the OFFICIAL card before it is turned in. I know some will say the Pro wants it but it only takes a second to see us.
3. I try to not show what holes have active birdies or open holes.
4. I announce the next day how many paid out and what holes they were won on.
5. I also have a roster with both flights and everyone’s name printed.
6. Ken and I balance all monies collected and paid out each day.
7. We hope for tips but understand if it is against your religion to not tip. A pitcher of beer works also.
8. We get there early and leave last each day. Hardly any practice.

Last year we had a player in our flight who was DQed for changing his scorecard before he turned it into the Pro. I met with Jeff Monday and he confirmed the DQ and we didn’t allow him in the skins after that violation. He didn’t win a skin but I want you all to know the skins guy should protect the pot also.

We have enough to worry about on the course. Trust your skins guy to run a fair game and ask him questions if you don’t understand anything.

Good luck all.

[Dale Craig]

I have a question I’ve been wondering about. I believe I’ve seen most of the skin cost broken down as $20/day for Monday thru Wednesday and $60 for Thursday or $100 for the week. Why aren’t the skins just $25 a day. What is the reasoning for the bigger pot on the last day? It’s not like we are playing the same course all week and skins have nothing to do with our scores.

[david tiano]

Your math is off. $20 for first 3 days and $40 for Thursday is $100.
The point being the last day there might be some guys that is all they are playing for and why not make it the largest pot

[Rick Kimbrell]

Pretty much most every game is as David states. 20,20,20,40 for total of 100. I have heard about larger ones but they were the exception. And, in some Senior and above flights, you can’t get us old geezers to put up $100 so it is 10,10,10 and 20 for total of $50. Also, in some of the higher handicap flights, it is not always birdie or better to win. A buddy of mine ran the game a few years back in the highest handicap mid-senior flight and they paid out par or better. Some holes were won with a par that week.
The last day has always been double for as many years and I have been coming. See no reason to change it.
I will run whatever the masses desire. As I stated before, I volunteer once I know that no one else is going to run the skins game on Monday. I come prepared just in case. And, if I do run it, I want someone to assist. Do not take a cut, do not ask for tips. If someone give me a tip…thank you. If someone buys me an adult beverage…thank you. If someone else runs the skins game, I will do whatever I can to help them out.
But, as has been stated before…regardless of what flight you are in…make sure the skins guy is legit, is registered in the tournament, and is playing in one of the 2 flights playing on your course that day.

[Josh Wurzberger]

Exactly David Tiano! I played like crap my second year and had only 1 birdie on the entire tourney and it was my last hole. Turned out it was the only skin of the $40 day. Made a cool $2600 cash!! That is why Dale Craig we pay $40 Thursday’s!! Good luck everyone!!

[Dale Craig]

My bad, I meant $40 not $60 for Thursday. So it goes back to the old we’ve always done it that way rule. OK. I just think a little better payout every day is better than one big day, but that’s just me.

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